A germán törzsek kialakulásával kezdve, a bronzkortól a római korig. Utána a római kor következik, kimberek és teutonok, Ariovistus, Arminius és a többiek. Azután a népvándorláskor idejének történései. Lezárva a szászok keresztény hitre térítésével Nagy Károly császár idején.
Én ezt elhiszem, sőt tudom, de mitől lennének a markomannok "őseink" ?? Tudsz tőlük eredő néprajzi/nyelvi/kulturális motívumot, mely a magyar identitás részét képezi? Sőt, még a genetikájukat sem ismered, így azt sem bírod összevetni a magyar markerekkel.
menj ki, nézd meg, fotozd, le, ott vannak a Capitoliumon máig is a Marcus Aurelius féle diadaliv táblái a markomman csata jeleneteivel és Marcus Aurelius pannoniai hadjáratával...
A markomann háborúk utánA markomannok a következő századokban még sok bajt okoztak a birodalomnak: a 3. században többször is rátámadtak Pannonia és Noricum tartományokra. A Pannoniában letelepült markomann törzsek 433-ban a hunok uralma alá kerültek. Akik a mai Csehországban maradtak azok 500 után elhagyták addigi területeiket, nyugatra költöztek, és beolvadtak a bajorokba.
Ilyen módon a markomannok őseink (KM barbaricum és hun része) azon csoportjába tartoznak amelyek mind a csehekkel, mind a bajorokkal összekötnek minket.
A kárpát-medencei germán törzek első realisztikus (hiteles) ábrázolása.
Kr. u. 168-ból.
A germán törzs a markomannok.
Szerettek volna bejönni Pannoniába, a Duna mentén Marcus Aurelius (markomann háboruk) maga indult ellenük. Gyűzött és a reliefen a történelmi békekötés látható és a markomannok hódolata látható Pannóniában a Duna vonalánál Marcus Aurelius előtt.
A domborművek alakjai ember nagyságuak, igen részletes, császárkori mestermunka.
Eredetileg a Marcus Aurelius diadalivet ékesitették, ma a megmaradt táblái a Capitoliumi Muzeumban vannak (Capitoliumi Domb, Roma, a Foro Romano fölött). Érdemes megfigyelni a viseletüket,frizurájukat, szakállukat.
Az biztos, hogy a gótoknak maradt némi genetikai lenyomatuk Ukrajnában, Romániában és az Észak-Balkánon.
Viszont Maciamo Hay azt állítja az Eupedián, hogy a gótok az ukrajnai sztyeppvidéken, ill. az Észak-Balkánon jelentős mennyiségű sztyeppei és balkáni népelemet, szlávokat, szarmatákat, romanizált illíreket és trákokat olvasztottak magukba és amikor az osztrogótok megjelentek Észak-Itáliában, a vizigótok pedig Dél-Galliában, később Hispániában, genetikailag és antropológiailag már egy meglehetősen vegyes társaság voltak.
Az I1-ről már volt szó, de az I2-nek, azon belül elsősorban az I2a2a3-nak is erősek a germán vonatkozásai:
I2a2a3 (Z161+)
I2-Z161 is the largest I2a2 subclade today. Also formed about 10,000 years ago, it is composed of three top-level subclades: L623, Y5188 and L801. The two first are extremely rare and have only been identified in Scotland and Ireland. 99% of Z161 members belong to L801 and share a common ancestor who lived 4,000 years ago, although L801 subclades experienced a dramatic expansion in the last 2,000 years. L801 is found predominantly in Germanic countries, with a particularly high concentration in Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, England and in Northwest Sicily (Norman settlement). It is also found at lower densities throughout the rest of Europe, from Portugal to Russia. I2-L801 is thought to have been propagated around Europe by the Danish Vikings (Britain, Normandy, Sicily), the Swedish Vikings (Baltic, Russia, Ukraine), the Goths (Moldova, Balkans, Italy, south-west France, Spain), the Suebi (Portugal and Galicia), the Lombards (attested by a hotspot in Campobasso, Molise), and the Franks (Rhineland, Belgium). All top level subclades are found in Germany, which points to its place of origin. Z161+ commonly known as the I2 Continental clade (except Continental 3).
The Y16963 and CTS1977 subclades are also found in Germany, the Benelux and the British Isles.
L1425 is found in Scandinavia, Germany, the Low Countries, England, France, Switzerland and Italy.
S2364 is the largest and most diversified I2a2 subclade. It has the widest distribution of any subclade. It is found in all Germanic countries, including Britain, but also Ireland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Latvia, Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. This suggests that it could have been propagated by the Franks, Anglo-Saxons, Goths and Vikings, among others. S2364 originated nearly 4,000 years ago, but its numerous subclades developed between 3,000 and 1,000 years ago, which matches the time frame of the Germanic ethnogenesis and Germanic migrations.
L1198 is a large branch found mostly in western Europe. That lineage emerged about 3,000 years ago and expanded quickly during the Germanic Iron Age from circa 500 BCE. It is divided in three branches that seem to have their roots in Sweden or Germany.
S20905 is found in Germany (Rhineland), France (Alsace), Switzerland, Hungary, as well as England, Sweden and Finland. The continental group (Z190+) might descend from the Alemanni, Suebi or another Germanic tribe that settled around Swabia.
Y6060 is found in the Netherlands and the British Isles and could be of Frisian and Anglo-Saxon origin.
Y17535 is found in Bohemia, Alsace, Galicia (Spain), Portugal and Britain. The continental branch could be linked to the Suebi tribe, which migrated from Swabia (SW Germany and Alsace) to Galicia and northern Portugal.
Amorim et al. (2018) tested the ancient Lombard-era DNA from 6th-century Italy and Hungary and identified one I2a2a-L801 and three I2a2a-ZS20 (downstream of L801 and S2364) samples in Szólád in western Hungary. They were all autosomally fully northwest European like the I1-L22, R1a-Z284 and the R1b-U106 samples, but unlike the other samples (E-V13, E-V22, G2a1a, I2a2a-L1229, R1b-U152, R1b-Z2103, T1a1a) that were clearly more southern European.
Egyébként pl. pont Skandináviában egy érdekes eloszlást mutat az R1a, mert pont Norvégia középső és északabbi részein eléggé magas a gyakorisága, 20% fölötti, holott pusztán földrajzi alapon nézve az ember ott kevesebbet várna, mint a nagy R1a-s kelet-európai centrumokhoz közelebb eső Svédországban vagy Dániában:
Az R1a Y-haplocsoport "germán ágának" története az Eupedia genetikai oldaláról:
"The Germanic branch
The first major expansion of R1a took place with the westward propagation of the Corded Ware (or Battle Axe) culture (2800-1800 BCE) from the northern forest-steppe in the Yamna homeland. This was the first wave of R1a into Europe, the one that brought the Z283 subclade to Germany and the Netherlands, and Z284 to Scandinavia. The Corded Ware R1a people would have mixed with the pre-Germanic I1 and I2 aborigines, which resulted in the first Indo-European culture in Germany and Scandinavia, although that culture could not be considered Proto-Germanic - it was simply Proto-Indo-European at that stage, or perhaps or Proto-Balto-Slavic.
Germanic languages probably did not appear before the Nordic Bronze Age (1800-500 BCE). Proto-Germanic language probably developed as a blend of two branches of Indo-European languages, namely the Proto-Balto-Slavic language of the Corded-Ware culture (R1a-Z283) and the later arrival of Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic people from the Unetice culture (R1b-L11). This is supported by the fact that Germanic people are a R1a-R1b hybrid, that these two haplogroups came via separate routes at different times, and that Proto-Germanic language is closest to Proto-Italo-Celtic, but also shares similarities with Proto-Slavic.
The R1b branch of the Indo-Europeans is thought to have originated in the southern Yamna culture (northern shores of the Black Sea). It was the first one to migrate from the steppes to the west, invading the Danube delta around 4200 BCE, then making its way around the Balkans and the Hungarian plain in the 4th millennium BCE. It is likely that a minority of R1a people accompanied this migration of R1b tribes. Those R1a men would have belonged to the L664 subclade, the first to split from the Yamna core. These early steppe invaders were not a homogeneous group, but a cluster of tribes. It is possible that the R1a-L664 people were one or several separate tribes of their own, or that they mixed with some R1b tribes, notably R1b-U106, which would become the main Germanic lineage many centuries later. The R1b-R1a contingent moved up the Danube to the Panonian plain around 2800 BCE, brought to an end the local Bell Beaker culture (circa 2200 BCE) and Corded Ware culture (c. 2400 BCE) in Central Europe, and set up the Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE) around Bohemia and eastern Germany. Unetice can be seen as the source of future Germanic, Celtic and Italic cultures, and is associated mainly with the L11 subclade of R1b.
The late Unetice culture expanded to Scandinavia, founding the Nordic Bronze Age. R1a-L664 and R1b (L11 and U106) presumably reached Scandinavia at this time. The people of the Nordic Bronze Age probably spoke a Proto-Germanic language. For over a thousand years while this culture existed, the Proto-Germanic R1b et R1a-L664 tribes would have acquired vocabulary from the pre-existing Corded Ware population that they assimilated, which was itself a blend of Proto-Balto-Slavic languages (linked to haplogroup R1a-Z284) and languages of non-Indo-European origin (linked to haplogroups G2a, I1 and I2). The Nordic Bronze Age was a melting pot of these three populations, which intermingled both genetically and linguistically, little by little creating a new ethnicity and culture as time went by.
The first genuinely Germanic language has been estimated by linguists to have come into existence around (or after) 500 BCE, just as the Nordic Bronze Age came to an end, giving way to the Pre-Roman Iron Age. The uniqueness of some of the Germanic vocabulary copared to other Indo-European languages suggests that borrowings from indigenous pre-Indo-European languages took place (Germanic substrate theory). The Celtic language itself is known to have borrowed words from Afro-Asiatic languages spoken by the descendants of Near-Eastern farmers who had settled in Central Europe. The fact that present-day Scandinavia is composed of roughly 40% of I1, 20% of R1a and 40% of R1b reinforces the idea that the Germanic ethnicity and language had acquired a tri-hybrid character by the Iron Age."
A belinkelt tanulmányból ezt ajánlanám a figyelmedbe, nem könnyű olvasmány a benne lévő régészeti és genetikai szakkifejezések miatt, de érdemes átrágni magad rajta:
III.7.3.3. Nordic Bronze Age
In Scandinavia, farming communities had already abandoned their subsistence strategy for the development of transhumance (Jensen 2003). A migration of Bell Beaker groups to Jutland (ca. 2300-1700 BC) seems to have brought skills in mining and sailing, introducing mass production of flint daggers, as well as the first metal daggers (an imitation of copper and bronze prototypes). This Dagger Period of the late Nordic Neolithic also represents the introduction of a more ranked social organization, and large chiefly houses similar to Únětice appeared in south Scandinavia, with a growth in interregional contacts. All these changes are interpreted as “a radical reorganization of economy and social organization which wiped out or integrated the diverse cultural traditions of the previous period into a single south Scandinavian cultural sphere”, which suggests “the formation of a shared Nordic language based upon the frequent interaction that followed from the distribution of flint daggers” (Kristiansen 2009). The best candidate for an expansion of the Pre-Germanic dialect of North-West IndoEuropean into Scandinavia is the Barbed Wire Beaker culture of the Low Countries and Northern Lowland (Kristiansen 2009), which would later show a period of change (Figure 16) starting ca. 1850 BC until its complete cultural change evident after ca. 1500 BC (Fokkens and Harding 2013), into the Elp culture (ca. 1800-800 BC). Samples of haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 are found quite late, in the Nordic Late Neolithic at Lilla Beddinge ca. 2150 BC (Allentoft et al. 2015), and in Oostwoud ca. 1881-1646 BC (Olalde et al. 2017), suggesting a connection of lineages between Jutland and the Low Countries. Modern population analysis supports this connection, showing that R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 distribution peaks today precisely around the Netherlands. Haplogroup I2-M438 was formed ca. 25500 BC, and the modern European population has a TMRCA ca. 19900 BC. Many ancient DNA samples are found since the Palaeolithic, and two main branches seem to have divided early: I2a1b2-L621 lineages are found mainly in the Balkans, and I2a2a-M223 – distributed through central Europe – seems to have followed the expansion of Italo-Celtic and Germanic, and were therefore possibly integrated with R1b1a1a2a1a-L151 lineages since the Bell Beaker complex. Samples from Sweden since the Mesolithic show exclusively I2-M438 lineages before the Bronze Age. It has been asserted, based on all samples studied from the Palaeolithic, that western hunter-gatherers (as defined in admixture analysis) represent a population that expanded 67 from a south-eastern European refugium following the last Ice Age around 15000 years ago – displacing or admixing with the existing population of western Europe (Mathieson et al. 2017) Haplogroup I1-M253 split from the common stem at approximately the same time as I2- M438. The first example is found in Neolithic Linear Pottery culture in Hungary (Szecsenyi-Nagy et al. 2015), which suggests its distribution in central Europe before the Corded Ware and Yamna expansions. The next sample found in aDNA records is from the Nordic Bronze Age in Angmollan, ca. 1400 BC (Allentoft et al. 2015) . R1b1a1a2-M269 lineages are found in early (Sebber Skole8 , ca. 1410 BC) and late Nordic Bronze Age (Angmollan, ca. 670 BC), while haplogroup I1-M253 is found in Angmollan (ca. 1400 BC), and haplogroup I-M170 in Angmollan (ca. 1360) and Abekas (ca. 1255 BC), suggesting a south-north cline in culture and population in Scandinavia during these times of ethnolinguistic change. The modern population with I1-M253 lineages is centred in northern Scandinavia near Skagerrak strait and Kattegat sea area, and shows a TMRCA ca. 2600 BC. On the other hand, R1a1a1b1a3-Z284/S221 lineage (formed ca. 2700 BC, TMRCA ca. 2300) – probably associated with the expansion of the Corded Ware cultures in Scandinavia – shows a distribution in modern Scandinavian populations located further to the north and west of that zone. If invasions from southern to northern Scandinavia are supposed to have happened in a south-to-north route, through the Øresund strait into the Skåne region, peoples of I1-M253 lineages should be assumed to have migrated from northern Europe during the proposed expansion of Beaker peoples into Scandinavia, and thrived after that, both populations pushing back the previous Corded-Ware-associated R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages, which in turn had probably displaced or replaced the earlier Neolithic I2-M438 lineages. It is difficult to ascertain whether both lineages, R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 and I1-M253, were already mixed in northern Germany before their northward migration into Jutland, or remained separated until forming a Pre-Germanic community later. If an early mixed R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106–I1-M253 society with a common language is to be supported, it seems to need further explanations as to the clear late differentiation into territorially- 8 Additional information xP312, xA2150 from Vince Tilroe. 68 divided lineages, with late founder effects having simplified to a greater extent the situation east and west of the Øresund strait. After an obscure period of internal development, the situation in Northern Germany and Scandinavia before the Iron Age would have probably corresponded loosely to the present situation, with the R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 / I1-M253 divide possibly located to the east of the current cline, at the Øresund strait, given the quite late invasion of Jutland by Danes. The irruption of Germanic peoples in central, east, and west Europe including the Roman Empire – the Barbarian Invasions from Classical sources, renamed the Migration Period since the Romantic era – suggests a R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106-dominated West Germanic area, and Viking migrations point to different clans belonging to R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106, I1- M253, and R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages in the North Germanic area (see below Figure 22). The modern distribution of R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 (Figure 17) is roughly coincident with the expansion of West Germanic with the medieval Ostsiedlung, showing a west-east cline compatible with the Germanization of Slavs to the east of the Elbe. Although modern population samples are difficult to assess without genealogical information – due to the expulsion of Germans after World War II –, medieval samples from Podlažice (ca. 1180 AD) in Czech lands and Nicolaus Copernicus’ family origin from Koperniki near Nysa in Silesia before the 14th century (Bogdanowicz et al. 2009) seem to support the expansion of R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 lineages associated with German settlers of the Holy Roman Empire east of the Elbe (see below Figure 31). The question of the dialectal nature of East Germanic remains a purely linguistic one, but I1-M253 and R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages scattered throughout Europe seem to support the classical description of East Germanic tribes migrating from Scandinavia to the east of the Elbe, and thus its connection with the Nordic branch.
Azért vannak még kételyeim az ilyen mérések iránt, amikor mondjuk például egy angolnak néhány százalékban balkáni vagy zsidó ősöket mutatnak ki, szóval van még mit csiszolni a módszeren.
Ebből az anyagból javaslom elolvasni legfőképpen a 66-79 oldalakat, az foglalkozik a proto-germánok, ill. a proto-italo-kelták eredetével, etnogenezisével:
Az ehhez a térképhez tartozó szöveges magyarázat az Eupedia oldalról:
French & German admixture
This admixture could represent ancient Alpine Celtic ancestry from the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures, perhaps mixed with some Germanic ancestry (notably Frankish and Alemani/Suebi). It peaks in Switzerland (max. 65%) and Wallonia (max. 70%), which were the two centres of the La Tène culture. The map matches fairly well the distribution of Celtic branches of Y-haplogroup R1b-U152 (once Italic ones are removed).
Tehát alpesi kelta, frank, alemann és sváb származással hozható a leginkább kapcsolatba.
A másik topikon már belinkelt francia-német admixtúra eloszlási térképe, leginkább a délnémetek, Rajna-vidéki németek és egyes francia népcsoportok között magas a gyakorisága:
Itt az előbb említett R1b-U106, jól látható, hogy a hollandok, frízek, nyugatnémetek, dánok és déli norvégok között a legmagasabb a gyakorisága, tehát tipikusan germán területeken:
A tágabb értelemben vett északnyugat-európai admixtúra eloszlási térképe a 23andMe adatai alapján.
Ennek a gyakorisága erős korrelációt mutat az R1b-U106 Y-DNS haplocsoport gyakoriságával, amely a.nyugati germán törzsek egykori elterjedési területének középső és nyugati részein a leggyakoribb.
"Ezen új teória szerint nem a lengyel és balti területekről érkező zsinórdíszes/csatabárdos kultúra hordozói, hanem a Közép-Európa délebbi régióiból, az Alpok és a Duna térségéből érkező harangedényesek ( Bell Beaker, Glockenbecherkultur) népe volt a sorsdöntő faktor az ősgermán etnogenezis folyamatában."
Elég régóta mantrázom ezt én itt.
A germánok a Kárpát-medencén át érkeztek a mai Bajorországba, ahonnan aztán a kelták szorították őket északra.
